Curse

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 04, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

I just want to point out that counterspells aren't the reason for blue's dominance. The massive amounts of card advantage generated by draw spells such as Brainstorm, Gush, and Fact or Fiction is. Blue can get to the cards it needs quicker than any other color. In fact, when ot comes down to it, there are only really two absolutely amazing counterspells: Force of Will and Mana Drain.

When I played Magic: The Gathering, colors generally emerged as dominant on their ability to control and manipulate tempo. Card advantage (as a separate concept) was one of the things that could be used to generate wide shifts in tempo. If you look at most of the conventional decks across many formats, they don't generate much absolute draw advantage at all; in fact, simple draw advantage is one of the forms of card advantage that generates minimal tempo, and generally isn't very good unless it's Ancestral Recall powerful, and / or paired with extensive card selection and library manipulation. The strength of counter-anythings besides their obvious effects in relation to card parity is their effects on tempo. Something like counterbalance / top is a pretty obvious example, where the only straight up draw advantage card is Dark Confidant. The strengths of the deck are the softlock combo with card selection through deckthinning. The actual card advantage in terms of many concepts is pretty weak.

Most of the various concepts related to card advantage and card selection aren't really obvious or entirely applicable in Guild Wars; you can sort of extrapolate comparisons from power plays, mismatches and positioning errors, or from removing several skills from play at once. However, parity and tempo are pretty obviously relevant, and interrupts operationally accomplish the same things in Guild Wars as they would in Magic: the Gathering.

In this case, for Rangers and Mesmers, Mantra of Resolve is like turning infinite Counterspells into infinite Mana Leaks, except the target has a nearly unlimited mana pool, and the extra cost is basically irrelevant. That whole statement is a really ridiculous level of stupid.

Sk8tborderx · Jun 05, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

LC - single target or adjacent and 10e.
Either change doesn't kill the skill, but it does reduce its effectiveness quite a bit.

Weaken knees - double the damage while moving, remove the degen or 10e and 15r.
The degen and the damage is too much, especially for only 5 energy.

Mind blast - 7 energy gain at 15 fire and/or 3 recharge.
This forces people to run a major, which makes them a bit easier to kill.

Aura of restoration - remove energy gain, or make the energy gain happen at 12-13 energy storage.
This combined with MB nerf should make distortion a lot less effective.

Ether prism - lose all enchantments and weapon spells, remove the 3 seconds of invincibility.
This might not be enough, but it needs to have some kind of downside. Elite energy management on eles without any downsides has always been a problem.

Savage/magebane shot - 7-8 recharge.
Too spammable right now.

Power block - 10e 15r 6-8s disable.
Right now you hit a prot monk and you can wipe or almost wipe a team, it should be used more for a window of opportunity to score a kill.

Signet of humility - kill it for pvp.
This skill has always been an issue in any meta is has been in.

LoD - revert to original power, but make it only work in earshot.
Without 9001 layers of defense anymore this skill could be brought back without being an issue.

Patient spirit - change back to 3s delay, or reduce healing to about 90 at 14 heal.
This skill is way too strong right now at stopping pressure.

RC - limit conditions removed to 3 at 14 prot, make it so you can target self.
This skill currently almost kills condition pressure by itself, it needs a bit of a nerf imo.

SoD - 5s duration at 14 prot, 7-8r.
This is another elite that could be buffed since we no longer have 9001 layers of defense.

Blessed light - 5e, lose 5e if you remove both a hex and condition. Could also just be lose 5e if you remove a hex.
This has been suggested many times already, and I am just going to include it in my list anyway.

VoR - 15e, or remove the AoE.
This wouldn't kill the skill, but would reduce its effectiveness a bit. This along with LC change I proposed earlier would force people to run a 3rd hex midliner if they wanted to run hexes, instead of being able to bring a ranger.

Dwaynas touch - 3-5s recharge.
This skill is a little too good on the E/D MB bar.

Featherfoot grace - Make the condition expiration time scale at the same level as purifying veil.
This is another skill that works a little too well with the E/D MB bar, this would nerf the skill, but not kill it.

Vanquisher · Jun 05, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The only thing that really hurts casters is PBlock, PLeak isn't anywhere close to what it used to be and with glyph lesser energy on your bar (which every stand ele should have) I don't see how this can even be a problem at all.

Glyph Lesser is a pretty poorly balanced skill to. Unspecced skills shouldn't allow for the kind of returns it does.

Quote:

Ranger interrupts are a bit too spammable though and with Aegis gone they might be a little over the top so I would support a small nerf (1-2s to the recharge of the 5r ones, keep dshot as it is)

Disable on Magebane prob. turned down to 5 would be good, else a recharge adjustment. Savage -> 7 (esp. considering fast activation added to various Ranger skills) and D-Shot to 12.

Quote:

Sure, it's better to not get interrupted than to risk getting interrupted, 9 out of 10 times the templates being ran on Me/X are perfectly viable on X/Y just strictly worse as bypassing interrupts pretty much completely > 1-2 extra attribute points.

Isn't this the point? Ele's in particular (outside of spike) are terrible at the stand because they cannot actually output any sort of pressure. While this is a class problem in general, it's not helped by the fact that they get destroyed as soon as they get hit with a P-Leak and their enchantment gets stripped. Especially with DW spammability being at 5a, along with the huge increases in power for most other classes (MB not included, lots of people have already argued over that).

Quote:

No one forces anyone to run resolve, the main reasons people run it is because the mindlessness that comes with it as well as the bigger uptime on hum sig because there's no need to fake it (like Phe described already).

Not even. If people could run stuff without such a huge probably that they'll get destroyed by interrupts they would. Resolve makes that a non-issue but the reason they take it is that interrupts are such an issue. I'm not saying hexes are a great mechanic - far from it, and it's no revelation casters are pretty junky in general. Even so, Mesmers are ridiculously strong (again, not saying other stuff isn't).

Quote:

I always have to laugh when people complain about dom mesmer interrupts being too powerful, when is the last time someone won a monthly using a dom mesmer (non VoR)? 9 months ago or something? and before that probably even longer ago.

This is completely irrelevant considering the actual format of monthlies. Knowledge of map and the consideration that some builds are ridiculously strong kind of voids your points. Asking for things to get nerfed after they've become a problem is a bad philosophy - you need to be looking at the problems before they become such problems and guide people to wins. Soon as I reinstalled I remember asking you to bring up MB and WK in particular but you didn't really care, for one reason or another, yet these are the kind of things being talked about now?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 05, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Glyph Lesser is a pretty poorly balanced skill to. Unspecced skills shouldn't allow for the kind of returns it does.

I'm talking about glyph on an ele, so it would be specced.

Quote:

Isn't this the point? Ele's in particular (outside of spike) are terrible at the stand because they cannot actually output any sort of pressure. While this is a class problem in general, it's not helped by the fact that they get destroyed as soon as they get hit with a P-Leak and their enchantment gets stripped. Especially with DW spammability being at 5a, along with the huge increases in power for most other classes (MB not included, lots of people have already argued over that).

Eles were never able to put out any pressure (at the stand), the exception being a searing flames ele. This has nothing to do with mesmer interrupts, it's just how it is. The Me/E people run don't put out pressure either.

PLeak really doesn't bother an ele that much getting his attunement stripped does, but this has always been the case and there are plenty of solid covers available to prevent this (most notably the new Aura of Restoration).

Quote:

Not even. If people could run stuff without such a huge probably that they'll get destroyed by interrupts they would. Resolve makes that a non-issue but the reason they take it is that interrupts are such an issue. I'm not saying hexes are a great mechanic - far from it, and it's no revelation casters are pretty junky in general. Even so, Mesmers are ridiculously strong (again, not saying other stuff isn't).

I've played the bar with and without resolve and the only reason I find the resolve bar to be better is because of the bigger uptime of sig of humility that comes from not having to fake it. Getting skills like VoR and Backfire off really isnt such a problem, the only thing that really bothers you is PBlock and possibly Magebane.

Quote:

This is completely irrelevant considering the actual format of monthlies. Knowledge of map and the consideration that some builds are ridiculously strong kind of voids your points. Asking for things to get nerfed after they've become a problem is a bad philosophy - you need to be looking at the problems before they become such problems and guide people to wins. Soon as I reinstalled I remember asking you to bring up MB and WK in particular but you didn't really care, for one reason or another, yet these are the kind of things being talked about now?

You asked me about MB, not WK and tbh I don't have a problem with the skill MB, the template is a bit ridiculous mostly cause of Distortion (or the E/D variant cause of FFG and DT).

You really overestimate interrupts, I know you haven't really played much since people actually started running them but really PLeak is hardly problematic as pretty much all templates work fine with natural regen + whatever energy management they might have (which in the case of Glyphs and Signets completely bypasses PLeak) the only template who needs high energy to function is a MBlast ele and the amount of energy they can generate is disproportionate to the amount of energy PLeak can deny them.

Avoiding interrupts always used to be something that seperated people from others, now PBlock I can sympathise with as 1 PBlock on an important attribute can have pretty drastic consequences but a PLeak and a PDrain every 20 seconds is laughable.

People run Me/X and Resolve/Concentration skills because they're easier to play, not because interrupts are too powerful.

urania · Jun 05, 2009, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Disable on Magebane prob. turned down to 5 would be good, else a recharge adjustment. Savage -> 7 (esp. considering fast activation added to various Ranger skills) and D-Shot to 12.

Isn't this the point? Ele's in particular (outside of spike) are terrible at the stand because they cannot actually output any sort of pressure. While this is a class problem in general, it's not helped by the fact that they get destroyed as soon as they get hit with a P-Leak and their enchantment gets stripped. Especially with DW spammability being at 5a, along with the huge increases in power for most other classes (MB not included, lots of people have already argued over that).

Not even. If people could run stuff without such a huge probably that they'll get destroyed by interrupts they would. Resolve makes that a non-issue but the reason they take it is that interrupts are such an issue. I'm not saying hexes are a great mechanic - far from it, and it's no revelation casters are pretty junky in general. Even so, Mesmers are ridiculously strong (again, not saying other stuff isn't).

This is completely irrelevant considering the actual format of monthlies. Knowledge of map and the consideration that some builds are ridiculously strong kind of voids your points. Asking for things to get nerfed after they've become a problem is a bad philosophy - you need to be looking at the problems before they become such problems and guide people to wins. Soon as I reinstalled I remember asking you to bring up MB and WK in particular but you didn't really care, for one reason or another, yet these are the kind of things being talked about now?

I remember about a year ago when TA balanced team build would usually consist out of a CE+rip ench necro, ZB monks (someties with purge), magebane/BA rangers with purge signet and evisc warr - in those times hexways NEVER ran mantras - not even mantra of conc or glyph of conc (there was no VoR in those times either, for example) and could still pull off a win if played well or if the balanced team's ranger did bad~
Now, they always carry at least mantra, sometimes pious conc on the necs too - how would u explain that? woh being too strong still? VoR/humility being too vital to let them get disrupted? mind that the ranger template has HARDLY changed in these years (one of the changes is, for example, remove hex instead of purge).

the text in bold sadly represents anet's and most of gvger's mentality on when balancing is needed. why prevent it if one can "cure" it instead. *rolleyes*

scruffy · Jun 05, 2009, 01:49 PM // 13:49

1 change glyph so only eles can use it: free energy management is too powerful

2 change dash so only assassins can use it: people will have to spec for their speed boosts, sins will get an advantage mobility wise

3 change weaken knees to cost 10 energy, this way a necro who uses it will still be good on splits but will be weak 8v8 because of poor energy management compared to right now where this necro is the shit on split and 8v8

Vanquisher · Jun 05, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

...

So basically what you're arguing is that Eles need to run 3 skills to cope with the possibility of a Mesmer being on the other team? PLeak isn't exceptional against Eles (though its use and a strip on Attune cripples them somewhat), but it is against casters that don't have E-Storge or strong return skills like PDrain. Sure this is a problem with the way casters like Necros and Eles are designed to function, but it also has a pretty big effect upon what people feel comfortable running.

Likewise for the lack of pressure. Without access to such skills they don't have the means to do so. They need to have stronger energy regen skills (akin to MB, but that template has its own problems) to be able to do so. Why then, don't we see MB's anywhere near their peak effectiveness at the stand? The ease of shutdown on them, and the poorly designed tiebreaker and base makeup both play their parts.

Re: MB - Aura healing/energy return, Distortion recharge, Cripple reduction cap and D-Touch proc'ing on Dervish enchants would help sort this. Would still be a viable character, but its power level wouldn't be anywhere near as high as it currently is.

I've played quite a bit over the past 6 weeks. I still think they're a huge issue in what's being run, and I thought so a long time ago also. Both playing and observing have given a pretty good indication of what's going on - and interrupts being the most frequently run form of shutdown sort of shows other forms are either underpowered or interrupts are somewhat overpowered. It's a combination of factors that combine to help this, but needless to say the ability to change up how they're used according to the situation easier than other forms is a pretty decent trait they have. The fact D-Shot on WoH completely rips apart a teams defenses (as it used to on LoD - trend?) also compliments this. Midline casters - especially now with Aegis being changed - other than Mesmers aren't run outside of hex and spike, and with hex they're now running Resolve, and occasionally Mesmer primary, while with spike the damage scale has become so huge anyway it's largely irrelevant and one character being interrupt bait is considered fine.

I'm not saying interrupts are the only reason casters don't get run. Damage has continuously scaled up while casters have remained pretty poor in terms of how they're made up. But it is naive or bias to argue interrupts aren't incredibly strong and have a huge relevance when considering what you want to - and can - run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

I remember about a year ago when TA balanced team build would usually consist out of a CE+rip ench necro, ZB monks (someties with purge), magebane/BA rangers with purge signet and evisc warr - in those times hexways NEVER ran mantras - not even mantra of conc or glyph of conc (there was no VoR in those times either, for example) and could still pull off a win if played well or if the balanced team's ranger did bad~
Now, they always carry at least mantra, sometimes pious conc on the necs too - how would u explain that? woh being too strong still? VoR/humility being too vital to let them get disrupted? mind that the ranger template has HARDLY changed in these years (one of the changes is, for example, remove hex instead of purge).

Meta adjustment. If you're scared of something or feel there are certain things that are really important, you modify your build slightly so you're less hampered by the problems to yourself (hopefully not gimping yourself vs. everything else in the process). Mantra does somewhat suffer from the same problem as Distortion in some respects. You just flash it and then the other team knows interrupts are pretty useless vs. you (unless P-Block or Wild Blow/Whirling Axe trains you). Overly long uptime and relatively quick recharge both allow for this. Stances in general need to be modified for their impact on the power creep - but again, so much does and it's unlikely to happen.

Alexandria · Jun 06, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Off topic, but, I don't suppose anyone know when this update will happen? Someone said Thursday next week, but random people in GToB are not to be trusted.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 06, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

A week after Saint Glinglin.

God_Hand · Jun 08, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight

I just want to point out that counterspells aren't the reason for blue's dominance. The massive amounts of card advantage generated by draw spells such as Brainstorm, Gush, and Fact or Fiction is. Blue can get to the cards it needs quicker than any other color. In fact, when ot comes down to it, there are only really two absolutely amazing counterspells: Force of Will and Mana Drain.

Because that was totally on topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Most of the various concepts related to card advantage and card selection aren't really obvious or entirely applicable in Guild Wars; you can sort of extrapolate comparisons from power plays, mismatches and positioning errors, or from removing several skills from play at once. However, parity and tempo are pretty obviously relevant, and interrupts operationally accomplish the same things in Guild Wars as they would in Magic: the Gathering.

In this case, for Rangers and Mesmers, Mantra of Resolve is like turning infinite Counterspells into infinite Mana Leaks, except the target has a nearly unlimited mana pool, and the extra cost is basically irrelevant. That whole statement is a really ridiculous level of stupid.

Next time, actually tie in your Magic thing to GW, like Sun Fired Blank did.

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 08, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Ether Prism-> 2 seconds of taking no damage

Magebane Shot-> 8 second recharge

Savage Shot-> 8 second recharge

Power Block-> Disable to 1...8

Visions of Regret-> take out AoE effect

Weaken Knees-> 10 energy

Lingering Curse-> 10 energy

Still Number One · Jun 08, 2009, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

Visions of Regret-> take out AoE effect

A lot of people want the AoE effect of VoR and Lingering curse to go away, which it is a problem but taking it away makes those skills really bad. I guess VoR could work alright without the AoE but imo you'd just be killing the skill instead of toning down its power which is what needs to be done. So instead of removing the AoE just limit it. For both VoR and Lingering they should change the effect to target for and up to 2 nearby foes, or something like that. By limiting the AoE the skill is still very effective when used properly and you are no longer able to completely stop the advance of a team who is trying to push through a choke point to finish off a retreating team. Just my opinion on those two skills.

God_Hand · Jun 08, 2009, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

Weaken Knees-> 10 energy

Lingering Curse-> 10 energy

The skills you've chosen to nerf are good candidates, just how you're doing these two doesn't detract from them too much. I mean, Glyph of Lesser Energy says sup? Anybody? ANYBODY? COME ON!

Here's my concept for hexes (in general, not just WK & VoR)

If the hexed foe moves out of earshot of the hex caster, the hex has half power/stops working (maybe dependent on certain skills in particular) until the hexed foe moves back into earshot range, at which point the hex resumes working like normal. I realize that this would make Weaken Knees crap.

I also personally believe that if the hex caster dies, the hexes should be removed with no ill effects. I'm tired of someone getting a VoR off or an Empathy just before I kill them, and I'm stuck for 10 seconds or more with very limited options.

Maybe enchantments could also be affected by both these points, to counteract a hex nerf?

It's a work in progress.

EDIT: FORGOT TO MENTION THAT ANET SHOULD BUFF PARAGONZ!

makosi · Jun 08, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

It pleases me as to how people are now advocating the nerfs of ranger interrupts. I've been crying for years about them being to spammable and giving rangers a 'camp n' spam' effect similar to Whack Attack (Whack-a-Mole in some countries.)

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 08, 2009, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

The skills you've chosen to nerf are good candidates, just how you're doing these two doesn't detract from them too much. I mean, Glyph of Lesser Energy says sup? Anybody? ANYBODY? COME ON!

Having to spend your second profession on an ele just to get glyph of lesser energy so now you have no protection such as dark escape, shield bash, etc says sup.

Quote:

Here's my concept for hexes (in general, not just WK & VoR)

If the hexed foe moves out of earshot of the hex caster, the hex has half power/stops working (maybe dependent on certain skills in particular) until the hexed foe moves back into earshot range, at which point the hex resumes working like normal. I realize that this would make Weaken Knees crap.

I also personally believe that if the hex caster dies, the hexes should be removed with no ill effects. I'm tired of someone getting a VoR off or an Empathy just before I kill them, and I'm stuck for 10 seconds or more with very limited options.

You have no idea what your saying. This is a whole concept that would make all guildwars players to delete their necro and mesmer characters.

Quote:

EDIT: FORGOT TO MENTION THAT ANET SHOULD BUFF PARAGONZ

You have probably never played a paragon so you dont understand how powerful pressure their spears can be at a high spear mastery. Combined with their pressure, they can also support team wide. Paragons can be very good if played right.

Ciric · Jun 09, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Nerf:
Mind Blast to 7 energy at 14
Aura of Restorations heal
Mantra of Resolve to -10 always
Lingering Curse to 10 energy
Weaken Knees to 10 energy

Buff:
Aggresive Refrain to 33%
Go For the Eyes to next 2 attacks have +XX% to crit hit

MB template is to strong, hexers like LC and Weaken Knees should not be able to run full hex bars with no e-management, e-management was always what lept hexes in check in the past.

Mantra is good, but you need to be able to still counter it with e-denial. Since all good forms of e-denial are nerfed keeping it at -10 energy means if you interrupt the caster it still has a huge negative effect on him, possiably breaking mantra and forcing them to re-cast it for 10 energy.

Paragons are to weak after all the nerfs, agg. ref. with cracked armor should be fine to be 33% again, and GFTE buff would put it back to its old state without the retarded energy gain ( could make the break 10 command so that it forces odd specs in some cases).

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 09, 2009, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

Paragons are to weak after all the nerfs, agg. ref. with cracked armor should be fine to be 33% again, and GFTE buff would put it back to its old state without the retarded energy gain ( could make the break 10 command so that it forces odd specs in some cases).

Are you retarded? Observed any matches lately?

dusanyu · Jun 09, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

someone has not seen the new uber defensive para overload

Monks with uber energy management from the power is yours and other Nifty defensive buffs that make for a Long headache of a match

i do however love how it Rolls Hexgay But i hate hexes so that should come as no shock

Morgoth the dark · Jun 09, 2009, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Ether Prism-> 2 seconds of taking no damage

wohoo, faster energy gain ^^

Quote:

Magebane Shot-> 8 second recharge

nah it's fine, noone is using it now except for apply/magebane spam, but that's rare...

Quote:

Savage Shot-> 8 second recharge

the main advantage in savage vs disrupting shot is it's recharge, so... keep it. Unless you want get spiked down with disrupting + 42 dmg

Quote:

Power Block-> Disable to 1...8

cool, i guess

Quote:

Visions of Regret-> take out AoE effect

now this makes it even weaker than backfire, it's advantage over it is this AOE appliance, skill vs spell usage doesnt do much

Quote:

Weaken Knees-> 10 energy

I would go over shorter duration for this one

Quote:

Lingering Curse-> 10 energy

it's fine now...

God_Hand · Jun 09, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

now you have no protection such as dark escape, shield bash...

This is why you have monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

You have no idea what you're saying. This is a whole concept that would make all guildwars players to delete their necro and mesmer characters.

True. My opinion is that we need to make hexes either less spammable (I am looking directly at Weaken Knees and Lingering Curse) or less fire-and-forget (I am STILL looking directly at Weaken Knees and Lingering Curse).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

You have probably never played a paragon so you dont understand how powerful pressure their spears can be at a high spear mastery. Combined with their pressure, they can also support team wide. Paragons can be very good if played right.

I have played a Paragon. I will admit that their pressure with spears is pretty good. On that note, how much is "High" Spear Mastery? Because just to clarify, I use 12, so if you're talking 16, I've been missing out.

Unfortunately, I think Spear Mastery is better suited as a Secondary for better heals, IAS's, IMS's, and more energy regen coming from the Primary.

Their party support, with the exception of The Power is Yours (only good Motivation skill IMO) and some Command skills (Make Haste & Go for the Eyes come to mind), is a very niche role (Song of Concentration is basically synonymous with Ghostly Hero, etc. etc.).

Paragons totally need a buff right now. Namely: Make their wings cooler-looking.